Curse

SurareVaera · Dec 11, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

When LoD was meta, people ran water eles but the general consensus was that if you knew your opponent was bringing a water ele, you would auto win by taking hex eater vortex. HEV has been nerfed a bit, but since the fast cast water template is nearly ubiquitous, I don't understand why people don't counter it in a similar manner.

Basically, this is the current template, and it's a strong build. - I wouldn't say it replaces a HEV dom mesmer but it functions to carry a party heal, unstrippable warding, a spike skill or two, and rend + weakness.

[Protective Was Kaolai][Weapon of Warding][Soothing Memories][Caretaker's Charge][Ancestor's Rage][Enfeeble][Rend Enchantments][Flesh of My Flesh]

Since Spawning Power is a worthless primary, Resto and Channeling can be nearly maxed allowing 6 for curses.

What if people tried:

[Protective Was Kaolai][Weapon of Warding][Soothing Memories][Caretaker's Charge][Ancestor's Rage][Smite Condition][Smite Hex][Flesh of My Flesh]

or:

[Light of Deliverance][Patient Spirit][Smite Condition][Smite Hex][Castigation Signet][Enfeeble][Rend Enchantments][Resurrection Signet]

Optional maybe being Strength of Honor, Bane Signet, Enfeeble, Guardian (5 attribs)

There's no doubt the original rit template is very strong right now, but I think that a character dedicated to negating the Me/E through condi/hex removal with AoE damage (in the area) would keep your warriors clean and allow them to spike more. While dual Kaolai is fantastic, it seems like an LoD smite combo might be a better and more spammable party heal, and possibly more useful vs SBRI and other gimmicky junk. The loss of Weapon of Warding is significant at the stand, but flaggers generally carry it too.

Yes/No/Maybe so? Thoughts?

scruffy · Dec 11, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

the rit/mo doesnt have rend and the mo/n doesnt have weapon of warding

I Angra I · Dec 11, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

The problem is there's just no way that any small amount of additional hex removal is going to keep up with the amount that fc water mesmers can spam out.

Back in the day, a water ele vs. a HEV dom mes, the HEV would work as cleanup because you would be interrupting a lot of the things the ele was casting, as well as mess with the ele's energy because of pleak/attunement stripping, and then HEV the things that got through.

The fc water mesmers now can't be interrupted like that, have way more e-management to spam their skills even more, at an even faster rate because of fast casting, and have a pretty spammable blind as well. Not to mention, because of the fast casting, they are able to blurred/blind a target exactly when he is spiking, so removal won't even work when it's being applied a split second before an attack skill lands to begin with.

Also, if you're running a stand rit aka rawrspike/fortressway, you probably don't need more hex removal anyway. The warrior doesn't need to be clean all the time, just once every 20s when rend is up to apply the deepwound so the midline ranger that does 9001 damage can kill the target. And yeah like the person above me said, warding/rend is what makes that stand rit so powerful. You have your imba enchant strip for your spike, plus warding which supports the 5 billion layers of defense.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Dec 11, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Both of the bars you posted are incredibly bad, run a sig mes with sig removal or some random midliner with emp removal if you wanna counter me/e.

scruffy · Dec 11, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Usually I find a ranger can distracting shot glyph of immolation because its not affected by FC which is 20 seconds of no blind, in this time you can get a holy veil put on you to counter the rest of his bar, idk if the mesmer is pblockable with a holy veil on or not as I haven't played mesmer a lot, but he shouldn't really be that big of a problem once his blind is gone.

In this time you hold down shift+control and you mash spacebar over and over and say 3...2....1 over vent on every target you switch to...now this is where it gets tricky because normally I press skills with my right hand and use the mouse with my left, but when I call spikes I hold down push to talk with my right hand and I have to move it really fast back to my skill keys so I dont miss my timing on bulls strike...it can get pretty ugly but I've used the same keyboard setup for so long I can't be bothered to change it to have the push to talk button closer to my skills(skills are 1-8, push to talk is 0 on the numpad)

thats basically how u counter water mesmers imo without changing ur build drastically

SurareVaera · Dec 11, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I agree with angra that the old HEV was strong because it could interrupt/strip the water eles to keep them at bay. I realize that blurred/steam is applied right before spikes which is why smite hex / smite condi are so useful - as they add bonus damage in addition to spot removal.

Yes, the Rt/Mo lacks rend
Yes, the Mo/N lacks WoW

but both builds carry a party heal, utility, and some spike ability so I don't think they're as absolutely terrible as a sig of removal mes like mitch suggested. The enchant requirement on that elite is too conditional (even with strength of honor vs rend/inspired), and i don't think a mes can run HP. Empathic is fine, though i don't think I'd squeeze it onto a ranger or a rit.

My builds may not be perfect, but the Me/E template is so common, I thought it might deserve a little build wars. Obviously, it can pump out snares to outpace a two monk backline - I really don't see how an extra hex removal on a midline can be anything but beneficial - especially if you might expect to encounter hexway or SBRI.

Hopefully with an upcoming update this will all be moot anyways. I'd rather see dom mesmers played again instead of fortress stand rits. A nice change might be to add glyphs to chants and spells for the power "xxxx" line of interrupts.

dies like fish · Dec 11, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurareVaera

but both builds carry a party heal, utility, and some spike ability

The Rt/N is much better at all of those.

Byron · Dec 11, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

run a sig mes with sig removal or some random midliner with emp removal if you wanna counter me/e.

This.

Also, I remember the old iQ Rt/Mo with spiky stuff, warding, and Restore Condition. At the time, I liked it a lot. I see potential in this idea, but generally frown on a midliner that's fundamentally defensive in all aspects.

Furthermore, i still don't see why the Me/e template is such a problem. It's a powerful build, but it takes skill and planning to use effectively. Frankly, were the template so debilitating, I think we would have seen some more caster hate come into the meta.

Michael805 · Dec 19, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

This.

Also, I remember the old iQ Rt/Mo with spiky stuff, warding, and Restore Condition. At the time, I liked it a lot. I see potential in this idea, but generally frown on a midliner that's fundamentally defensive in all aspects.

Furthermore, i still don't see why the Me/e template is such a problem. It's a powerful build, but it takes skill and planning to use effectively. Frankly, were the template so debilitating, I think we would have seen some more caster hate come into the meta.

There would be caster hate, but there is no room for it after you put your FC water, loldamage ranger, and stand rit into the build.

ChopChop · Dec 21, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

The biggest reason not spec specifically for the FC water mesmer is, that it doesn't really stop damage all that well, when its play well it is decent at stopping spikes, but thats about it.

A small amount of disruption / removal / kd's on it is plenty to keep the offense rolling, and who said you had to spike count right before he is going to use blind or blurred?

People make way to big a deal out of it, but that is no surprise, people also screamed about the old bsurge being overpowered, now bsurge is back, stronger than before, yet no one really uses it.
My only conclusion is that most people do not know what they are talking about :P